05 Baja turbo shortblock

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ratfink
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05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Hideyho Guys, Got myself into a good one and could really use some technical support. I have a few questions to get me started and I'm sure I will have several questions along the way as I proceed with my project. First, some details: I just purchased a 2005 Baja DOHC turbo w/ auto trans. Good news: Just what I was looking for and in good shape inside and out. Bad news: Threw a rod and busted the block, maybe even damaged one of the cylinder heads. Now, just so you understand, I've worked as a mechanic all my life and I have the tools to do the job, but I'm not a Subaru expert by any means and electronics are not my strong suit. I have come up with a few possible scenarios and wondered if maybe you guys could steer me in the right direction.
#1- I have a short block out of our 2001 Legacy Outback wagon that I pulled out a few years ago (2.5 SOHC). It had a little noise that I thought might be piston slap, was leaking oil, and had 200k miles. But, it ran good and didn't burn oil. I only replaced it because the transmission was starting to give me problems and I found an eng/trans assy that had less miles. Could this short block be freshened up and used to replace the damaged short block in my Baja?
#2- I also just purchased a wrecked 2002 Legacy Outback wagon with a 2.5 SOHC and auto trans with 145k. (My Baja has 185k) Would I be better off to take the eng/trans/wiring/computers/etc out of the Outback and transfer everything into the Baja. Is this even feasible? I realize this would be a very time consuming job, but I gotta tell you, I'm retired and I have more time than money.
Well that's it for now. I'm sure I will have lots of questions once I get started. Thanks for any help or suggestions. Ratfink.
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kamesama980
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by kamesama980 »

Fun times. Many of my cars have been purchased non-running or with known issues. Some of the best deals for someone mechanically inclined. What's your goal with the car and the work you're doing? just having a working car? have a working car until you can put the right engine in? put the turbo bits on the NA engine?

replacing just the shortblock: Don't use a non-turbo shortblock. the block, rods, and pistons are different.
-the block will bolt up but the cylinders are open deck/free-floating at the head gasket-not as strong. Not sure if the various bungs, ports, and fittings are the same but I think so.
-rods are weaker (or so I've heard)
-pistons are higher compression

Replacing the engine with an earlier non-turbo variant: you'd have to gut and swap basically ALL the electronics in the car. the early 2000s was a transition period, the earlier cars have a mechanical cable operated throttle body, the 05 has an electronic throttle. The ECMs are completely different to accommodate that and other changes and the body electronics are different to match it.

The NA transmission at least has different final drive ratios than the turbo, if you do use it, you'll need the rear diff too and probably the axles for a non-turbo. (turbo/NA Bajas have different axles) No idea about electrical issues between them, Automatics are the devil.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
ratfink
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Thanks for the info kamesama. Really thought I lucked out when I saw the EJ25 on the top front of both blocks. Seems like anything DOHC turbo is very expensive. My goal is to build a dependable, cool, second car on a very tight budget. If I choose to repair the existing motor, what do I look for to make sure I have found the correct block? Is there anything I need to watch for that would lead to potential problems? What years and models would use a compatible block? I'm still not sure about the left head. When I pulled the plugs, the plug for the front cylinder was flattened, so I know the piston smacked the head pretty hard when the engine exploded.
I'm still toying with the idea of swapping everything out of the 02 Outback I bought. I know pulling and swapping the complete wiring harness, computers, etc would be a major headache. Also good to know about the rear end. I wondered if gearing would be different on a turbo car. Anything else you can think of that might make me regret this route?
Thanks again, ratfink
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ZUBAJA »

While I don't have the "turbo experience", what I learned from doing both DOHC (NA) and SOHC was the DOHC was very unforgiving valve wise. While I always thought both were interference engines (I now hear that the SOHC isa non interference), the DOHC definitely is, and when aligning cams for timing belt install, the top left cam can only be turned one direction and only a certain amount or the valves will hit and bend. IIRC, the DOHC had squarish recesses in the tops of the pistons while the SOHC had maybe dished pistons. Pistons can be removed after removing the hex (allen) socket plugs from front cylinders and seperator plate on back of cylinder (right side) (again IIRC on the seperator). In a perfect world, after removing the plugs and the retaining clips, the wrist pins can be pulled out using expanding ring type pliers or some kind of "L" shaped tool. In "real world" :D, I had to make a threaded "L" tool, feed it down the wrist pin, wedge it in place with a second pin (to hold the bottom of the "L" against the edge of the pin) and use appropiate spacers, a washer, and nut to "pull" the wrist pin out.
Wiring: the engine was "plug and play" (06 Forester), and it appears that my 03 Baja has a p&p electrical as well. Hope this helps, Dennis
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anarchy1024
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by anarchy1024 »

I think in California, any replacement engine needs to be of the same year as the body, or newer, for it to be legal (emissions regulations, IIRC). Therefore, you wouldn't be allowed to put an 02 engine into an 05 Baja... So it might be worth looking into for your state to see if there are similar rules.
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

I want to thank everyone for their input. I have decided to swap everything from my 2002 Outback into my Baja. (eng,trans,rear end,wiring harness,computers,axles,etc.) If any of you guys out there can think of a reason that this will not work, PLEASE let me know. I know it's a great deal of work but, everything i have checked on for the 2.5 turbo motors is crazy expensive.
Thanks again, headed to the garage, Tom
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kamesama980
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by kamesama980 »

Sorry, my head's just spinning trying to figure out where you're going with this.

What's your budget for the car all said and done? what did you pay for it (if you don't mind sharing) and what do you have left to work with? Did you know the engine was toast and planned to swap the NA in or did you buy it with a "good" engine and it blew up after you got home and now you just want to have anything?

Why bother going to the time and effort to swap the NA engine, trans, and electrical to the baja? at that point it's worth less than a stock NA when you could buy a NA baja and be done with it. Have you driven an NA auto Baja? 165 screaming horses ain't much in front of a slushbox pushing around 3800lb. My 5-speed NA is about on par with my wife's prius even if it is a lot more fun. An auto will have all the sporty acceleration of a school bus.

Yes the parts are more expensive for the more powerful engine because they have to be better/stronger! Seriously, just keep looking for a bit and you'll find what you need without having to take out a second mortgage. there are many subaru forums and groups on the book of fools (facebook) both national and local. When looking for a shortblock, or even a longblock, any EJ255 will do (turbo, single AVCS (subaru's name for VVT))

Time=money. for the time you will spend swapping the outback everything, you could find a used EJ255 longblock and still be turbo. There's one on FB out of a baja a few hrs south of me well under $1k that had low compression.
anarchy1024 wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm I think in California, any replacement engine needs to be of the same year as the body, or newer, for it to be legal (emissions regulations, IIRC). Therefore, you wouldn't be allowed to put an 02 engine into an 05 Baja... So it might be worth looking into for your state to see if there are similar rules.
correct: same year or newer and same designation (car vs truck). California's the only place (in the states) that bad. Don't get me started, just leave that god awful state or let the problematic area detach from the mainland and sink. California needs to go spend a week in Indonesia or Mexico and bother them a long time before they tell anyone in the states what is safe or clean.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
ZUBAJA
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ZUBAJA »

kamesama980 wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:34 am
anarchy1024 wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm I think in California, any replacement engine needs to be of the same year as the body, or newer, for it to be legal (emissions regulations, IIRC). Therefore, you wouldn't be allowed to put an 02 engine into an 05 Baja... So it might be worth looking into for your state to see if there are similar rules.
correct: same year or newer and same designation (car vs truck). California's the only place (in the states) that bad. Don't get me started, just leave that god awful state or let the problematic area detach from the mainland and sink. California needs to go spend a week in Indonesia or Mexico and bother them a long time before they tell anyone in the states what is safe or clean.
That might be federal. Back when Florida had emissions (inspections), the rule was the same: same year or newer and equipment had to be up to standard of original vehicle year equipment.
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Let me try to clear up some things, seems as though I have opened the proverbial can of worms here.

#1. I bought my Baja (185k 2.5 DOHC turbo automatic trans) knowing that it had thrown a rod. It's really clean, no rust, near perfect interior. Paid $1900, and ended up with about $2200 total in it by the time I got it home (Two trips, one to look, one to tow. including food and gas. It was located about 4 hours from my house.) I wasn't looking for a turbo car, that just happens to be what I found.

#2. We have owned an 01Outback for about 10 years and loved the car. The Outback is getting tired and starting to rust so I figure maybe it's time to retire and replace. Enter the Baja. Perfect. An Outback with a handy little bed.

#3. OK. Now the Baja is home and I decide to part out old faithful 01 Outback. Guy calls me for front the clip to repair his 02 Outback and in the process, I ended up buying his car instead of selling him the parts. Plan is to put motor and trans from wrecked 02 (145k) into 01 (250k). Only paid $450 for the car (the wrecked 02). At this point I would have a good Outback to drive till the Baja is ready. THEN sell the 01.

#4. Decide to pull the plugs, and pull the pan and survey the damage to the Baja engine before I tackle the 01-02 engine swap. (Ya'll followin this so far?) Pulled first plug and the electrode is smashed flat. Pulled the pan and found (to my dismay) that the block was busted all to heck. Now I decide to check on a short block, or long block or ?. Anyway everything that I find 2.5 DOHC turbo is (in my world) crazy expensive. Now the wheels start turning, I have a great low mileage (sorta) engine and transmission in the 02 and I only got $450 in it. I know I'll have to swap out everything including the wiring and computers, it looks like the same platform, it should work. Now, in my mind, when done, I got a neat, clean little Baja for less than $3000, tax title and a full tank of gas. Then everything starts to fall apart........I am being told...May have electrical problems with dash. Floor pan may cause transmission clearance problems. Gear ratios different. Even though it looks the same, the basic platform is a bit different. The value of the car(being a turbo Baja) would tank. And, the Subbie Gods will strike me down in the middle of the night. (only kidding guys).

#5. Yea, my head is spinning too. Just wanted a neat little car without spending a fortune. I am now leaning more toward figuring a way to save the turbo motor as reasonably as I can. Any suggestions are welcome and truly appreciated. Thanks again, Tom
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kamesama980
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by kamesama980 »

awesome job getting us up to date. Wish more people would do so as completely as you did there.

Transmision: wouldn't worry about physically fitting, there's a ton of space and it oughta be the same externally anyway. there *may* be issues getting the OB PCM to control the Baja turbo trans. I can't say because the last auto trans I had was 10 cars ago in a then-20 year old Toyota and I swapped it for a stick.
Gear ratios: this has to do with the front diff (inside the trans) vs rear diff. Basically just keep the diff and trans together and no problem.
Axles: may need to keep those with the same trans too. I know the manuals have different axles for the turbo/NA, not sure about the auto. I think they're the same at the hub though.
Electronics in general... if you have suspected or known issues with the baja... maybe it is worth swapping everything (engine harness, computer, body harness(es), computer(s), and cluster.
Value: for what you have in it, it's a wash. I'm thinking in terms of a NA being 4-8k and a turbo being 5-12k. a turbo-turned-auto I'd put at 3-6k but harder to sell too just because it's modded. But you're looking for a car for you, this is only an issue if you plan on selling it.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
ratfink
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Hideyho guys, Took a few days off to see if the spinning would stop or at least slow a bit.

#1- First a quick question for kamesama. You mention several times NA. What is NA?

#2- Does anyone know for sure ( if I decide to do the driveline/harness swap ) if the instrument cluster from the Outback will fit and work in the Baja? They sure look the same but I know that can really get you in trouble sometimes. Also keep in mind, EVERYTHING (computers,wiring,eng,trans,rear end,axles,struts,etc.) will be taken out of the Outback and installed into the Baja. ANY OTHER ISSUES that I may be running into that I'm not thinking of?

#3 - I guess the reason I keep bouncing back and forth is that I bought the Baja to keep and drive. Not to resell. Not to try and make money. But as a neat and clean, dependable driver. I understand the purists out there that will want to tar and feather me if I do the swap, and I understand. But, for me, swapping out everything with the Outback makes short term and long term sense. Cheaper to get on the road. Cheaper to maintain. Cheaper to repair.

#4- I got two issues that are holding me back. #1-The Outback is a nice car and repairable. Hate to waste it. #2-Worry about getting half way into the project and find out that even though the two (Baja and Outback) look the same, there are major differences that will make the entire project impossible.

Guess I just need to make a decision and go with it. I will keep you guys up to date with the project, whichever way it goes. Thanks, Tom
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kamesama980
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by kamesama980 »

NA = Naturally Aspirated AKA non-turbo.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Did you ever feel about 2 inches tall?? Yea, I should have known that. Anyway, thanks kamesama. Will keep ya'll up to date as the project progresses. Keep in mind this may take awhile. Thanks again, Tom
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ratfink »

Hideyho Guys. A decision has been made. Engine, transmission, and front crossmember/suspension complete are now out of Baja. My next step is to try to remove the eng/trans/ft suspension and crossmember as an assembly from the 02 Outback. The Outback was wrecked and the frame horns were both bent so I have cut out the core support and the frame horn that was bent towards the center of the car. This should allow me to drop the assy slightly and roll everything forward, out from under the car on a couple motorcycle jacks. I am going to need a couple taller jack stands to get the Baja about 6 inches higher to slide the whole assy under. My goal is to have eng/trans/front suspension (from the Outback) back under the Baja by the end of next week.
I do have another question. I had planned to also swap the complete rear end assy. Got the idea to check the build sheets and see if the gear ratios were the same in both cars. (would save a lot of time and work if I could leave the original rear end in the Baja) Went to scoobynet, VIN decoder, and sure enough both showed a 3.90 rear gear ratio. Problem is both also showed manual overdrive transmissions. Kinda weird because both are automatics. Anybody know why the discrepancy? Makes me doubt the accuracy of the info.
Will keep you posted. Tom
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Re: 05 Baja turbo shortblock

Post by ZUBAJA »

Wow. Never thought of dropping the drive train from under the vehicle. Used to do that all the time with Corvairs. Dennis
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