Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

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SirMyztiq
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Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

Hello!

My Baja has fits starting up in the mornings or when it's cold outside. Really annoying. Doing some research I found that it might be the "cold start injector" I know it's not the battery​, swapped it like three months ago.

I've worked on Subaru engines before(05 STis) and done injector work. But this cold start injector is completely new to me.

Any other things I should consider for this issue? I'm considering just doing a full tune-up this weekend since she's due for an oil change.

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kamesama980
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

Cold start injector? Was that something that just showed up out of the blue in your searches or specific to your car? Last CSI I saw was <1996. Also, we need a LOT more info.
Any mods? any recent engine/electrical repairs? Why was the battery replaced (was it tested and they gave you a diagnosis or did you just swap it out when the car didn't fire up)?
How cold is cold enough to make it unhappy? how warm makes it OK? how long does it have to sit for the symptoms to show up? If it's running badly, can you key off then start it up again OK?

What EXACTLY is it doing/not doing? Start with the following options:
1) no-crank/slow crank (the engine doesn't spin or spins slowly when the starter is turning it)
2) crank/no-start (the engine spins fine when powered by the starter but doesn't fire on it's own)
3) Cranks, starts, runs poorly (cranks fine, fires, runs like crap). how quickly does it clear up? <10 seconds, 1-5 minutes, several minutes?

Having swapped the battery 3 months ago just means another problem has had 3 months to kill your battery if the actual cause is something else. It does NOT mean the battery or starting/charging electrical system isn't at fault.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
SirMyztiq
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

kamesama980 wrote: Thu May 25, 2017 12:25 pm Cold start injector? Was that something that just showed up out of the blue in your searches or specific to your car? Last CSI I saw was <1996. Also, we need a LOT more info.
Any mods? any recent engine/electrical repairs? Why was the battery replaced (was it tested and they gave you a diagnosis or did you just swap it out when the car didn't fire up)?
How cold is cold enough to make it unhappy? how warm makes it OK? how long does it have to sit for the symptoms to show up? If it's running badly, can you key off then start it up again OK?

What EXACTLY is it doing/not doing? Start with the following options:
1) no-crank/slow crank (the engine doesn't spin or spins slowly when the starter is turning it)
2) crank/no-start (the engine spins fine when powered by the starter but doesn't fire on it's own)
3) Cranks, starts, runs poorly (cranks fine, fires, runs like crap). how quickly does it clear up? <10 seconds, 1-5 minutes, several minutes?

Having swapped the battery 3 months ago just means another problem has had 3 months to kill your battery if the actual cause is something else. It does NOT mean the battery or starting/charging electrical system isn't at fault.
You're right. It was late night and I was not very detailed.

The CSI is pretty much the first thing that came up and mentioned in many articles. Should of checked the date. I've never heard of it. Specific searches for my car didn't return much.

The car has no mods nor has it had electrical repairs. The battery was replaced because of this issue. I took it to Auto Zone they tested it said it was bad and I replaced it. Didn't have a problem right away so I thought it was fine.

Right now temperatures can be at around 60 degrees and it'll act up in the mornings and sometimes in the afternoon when it's cool outside. Recently it's been mostly mornings because it sits in the garage overnight. Once I start it, it has no problems starting right away for quick trips. Now if I drive to work and its cool outside, it can act up.

It does not crank when this happens. I turn the key, I hear the fuel pump in the back hissing and it ticks but does not start. Usually after a couple of tries it starts up. After it starts up, sometimes it has a CEL but it goes away on restart or by the end of the day.
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kamesama980
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

Ah, that narrows it down some. is it a quick steady series of tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick?

I'd suspect that the battery is deeply discharged when it happens and/or bad connections between the battery and starter (and ground path back to the battery). As you pointed out it's a new battery and the previous one was replaced for the same symptoms. parts stores and even many mechanics simply replace a battery if the handheld tester says so. unfortunately the handheld testers can't reliably discern a discharged battery from a bad battery and even more rarely troubleshoot the cause of the battery failure.

Right now, possible causes include
-borderline/failed alternator (hasn't completely failed but might be causing problems) not re-charging the battery.
-wiring problems between the battery and starter (.25 Ohm makes a big difference with as many amps as flow on startup) or possibly between the battery and alternator (less likely to cause problems)
-battery borderline/failure caused by one of the above (which would not be covered under the battery warranty though some places might do it as a kindness if you buy other parts to fix the problem).
-parasitic draw: something's still turned on when you turn the key off.

So now the question is how mechanically and electrically inclined are you? Do you have a battery charger? Do you have a voltmeter and clip-on jumpers? (or some extra hands) If yes, read on. for all steps, if I say test the battery terminal, I mean the battery terminal. Not the clamp attached to it, not the wire nearby, the terminal itself!

1) pull the fuel pump fuse.
2) put the voltmeter leads across the battery terminals set to read DC Volts. this gives us the battery open circuit/resting voltage. (ideally oughta be 12.5+. If it isn't, charge the battery. In fact, just charge the battery anyway) (write it down)
5) While holding the leads on the battery terminals, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is cranking battery voltage. write it down.
4) Hold one lead from the meter to the battery + terminal (clamp or friend), hold the other to the + stud on the starter. The stud itself, not the connector, wire, etc. While doing this, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is positive cable voltage drop. Write it down.
5) Hold one lead from the meter to the battery - terminal (clamp or friend), hold the other to the case on the starter. make sure to scrape through the crud and corrosion to bare metal. While doing this, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is ground side voltage drop. Write it down.

put the fuel pump fuse back in or you'll kick yourself when you have to go to work in the morning lol.

If the battery cranking voltage drops below 12v=bad
If the voltage drop>1v on either side=bad

don't replace anything yet.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
SirMyztiq
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

kamesama980 wrote: Wed May 31, 2017 9:49 am Ah, that narrows it down some. is it a quick steady series of tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick,tick?

I'd suspect that the battery is deeply discharged when it happens and/or bad connections between the battery and starter (and ground path back to the battery). As you pointed out it's a new battery and the previous one was replaced for the same symptoms. parts stores and even many mechanics simply replace a battery if the handheld tester says so. unfortunately the handheld testers can't reliably discern a discharged battery from a bad battery and even more rarely troubleshoot the cause of the battery failure.

Right now, possible causes include
-borderline/failed alternator (hasn't completely failed but might be causing problems) not re-charging the battery.
-wiring problems between the battery and starter (.25 Ohm makes a big difference with as many amps as flow on startup) or possibly between the battery and alternator (less likely to cause problems)
-battery borderline/failure caused by one of the above (which would not be covered under the battery warranty though some places might do it as a kindness if you buy other parts to fix the problem).
-parasitic draw: something's still turned on when you turn the key off.

So now the question is how mechanically and electrically inclined are you? Do you have a battery charger? Do you have a voltmeter and clip-on jumpers? (or some extra hands) If yes, read on. for all steps, if I say test the battery terminal, I mean the battery terminal. Not the clamp attached to it, not the wire nearby, the terminal itself!

1) pull the fuel pump fuse.
2) put the voltmeter leads across the battery terminals set to read DC Volts. this gives us the battery open circuit/resting voltage. (ideally oughta be 12.5+. If it isn't, charge the battery. In fact, just charge the battery anyway) (write it down)
5) While holding the leads on the battery terminals, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is cranking battery voltage. write it down.
4) Hold one lead from the meter to the battery + terminal (clamp or friend), hold the other to the + stud on the starter. The stud itself, not the connector, wire, etc. While doing this, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is positive cable voltage drop. Write it down.
5) Hold one lead from the meter to the battery - terminal (clamp or friend), hold the other to the case on the starter. make sure to scrape through the crud and corrosion to bare metal. While doing this, crank the motor for 10 seconds and observe the voltage(obviously, keep loose clothing, jewelry, hair, fingers, etc away from moving parts). This is ground side voltage drop. Write it down.

put the fuel pump fuse back in or you'll kick yourself when you have to go to work in the morning lol.

If the battery cranking voltage drops below 12v=bad
If the voltage drop>1v on either side=bad

don't replace anything yet.
Sorry for the late response. I took the measurements then realized my batter terminal was loose and needed a replacement. After I did that, it worked!...then it went back to doing what it was doing. I took the measurements you asked.

Crank voltage was at 12.36V
+ to + => -.9
- to case => 145+

The - to case was alarming. However, I had to sneak my hand through intercooler stuff to get to it but I believe I managed to make contact. The thing was just showing an ever increasing number here. And I'm experiencing the same symptoms today, but now it takes much longer to start to the point where I don't even try until the next day and it magically starts then.
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kamesama980
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

when you measured from + to + and from starter case to battery -, were you reading DC volts while someone was cranking the motor or were you reading ohms? Reason I ask is if you got 145 volts while cranking there's something very very wrong, while 145ohms I would just ascribe to a bad connection of the leads.

losing a volt on the + side isn't critical but it is a bad sign.Try the ground loop voltage drop again, but go to any accessible part of the engine block or intake manifold (or head, accessory brackets, etc)
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
SirMyztiq
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

kamesama980 wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:19 am when you measured from + to + and from starter case to battery -, were you reading DC volts while someone was cranking the motor or were you reading ohms? Reason I ask is if you got 145 volts while cranking there's something very very wrong, while 145ohms I would just ascribe to a bad connection of the leads.

losing a volt on the + side isn't critical but it is a bad sign.Try the ground loop voltage drop again, but go to any accessible part of the engine block or intake manifold (or head, accessory brackets, etc)
I'm starting to think it's the starter. I haven't taken those measurements, I will tomorrow. But I did get a CEL after it wouldn't start today:
P0335 - Crankshaft Position Sensor 'A' Circuit Signal Fault

And it says low voltage or a weak starter can trigger. I don't experience any stalling when driving or anything, so this indicates something with the starter as well.
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

SirMyztiq wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:01 pm
kamesama980 wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:19 am when you measured from + to + and from starter case to battery -, were you reading DC volts while someone was cranking the motor or were you reading ohms? Reason I ask is if you got 145 volts while cranking there's something very very wrong, while 145ohms I would just ascribe to a bad connection of the leads.

losing a volt on the + side isn't critical but it is a bad sign.Try the ground loop voltage drop again, but go to any accessible part of the engine block or intake manifold (or head, accessory brackets, etc)
I'm starting to think it's the starter. I haven't taken those measurements, I will tomorrow. But I did get a CEL after it wouldn't start today:
P0335 - Crankshaft Position Sensor 'A' Circuit Signal Fault

And it says low voltage or a weak starter can trigger. I don't experience any stalling when driving or anything, so this indicates something with the starter as well.
Getting the voltage can determine whether it's a weak starter or something else. Sometimes, rarely, the starter can fail in a way that draws too much current which draws system voltage down to the point that other things fail. The problem with codes is sometimes they trip for brief failures like the voltage dropping because of other issues. The volt-drop tests will also indicate if replacing the wiring would help as that can cause the starter to fail. Being an intermittent complete lack of response from the starter does point to the starter but I'm saying that might be a symptom of another issue.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
SirMyztiq
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

Got some readings today. Found that I had to press the point into the metal to get somewhat normal looking readings.

Battery started off at 12.66V

11.65V cranking voltage.

Positive cable voltage drop: .222 and .184(took two readings)

Ground side voltage drop: -.202 to top of block
And -.208 to starter case(two readings)

The car did have two periods while I was doing this where it didn't start. That was frustrating.

I hope these tell you a bit more.
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kamesama980
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

11.6v cranking and .2v on each leg isn't perfect but shouldn't cause problems.

The intermittent acting like not enough power has me thinking bad winding in the motor or loose connection within the battery (and you said the battery is already newish). Can't say for sure but the other suspects aren't panning out.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
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05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by SirMyztiq »

kamesama980 wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:44 am 11.6v cranking and .2v on each leg isn't perfect but shouldn't cause problems.

The intermittent acting like not enough power has me thinking bad winding in the motor or loose connection within the battery (and you said the battery is already newish). Can't say for sure but the other suspects aren't panning out.
Like in the starter motor?
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Re: Cold start sucks 2005 Baja Turbo

Post by kamesama980 »

SirMyztiq wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:48 am
kamesama980 wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:44 am 11.6v cranking and .2v on each leg isn't perfect but shouldn't cause problems.

The intermittent acting like not enough power has me thinking bad winding in the motor or loose connection within the battery (and you said the battery is already newish). Can't say for sure but the other suspects aren't panning out.
Like in the starter motor?
sorry, yes in the starter motor.

one bad winding, sometimes it stops spinning there and that's when you get the no start until something jostles it enough to slip into contact with the next winding and then it goes.
-Russell
"You don't get to judge me for how I fix what you break"
03 sport 5mt
05 turbo 5mt vf39 and other STI bits, 3" turbo-back
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